“Mr and Mrs Bishop”

Hattip to Fr. Ed Tomlinson, who was rather amused by the following video, announcing the second woman bishop in the Church of England, Canon Alison White (wife of Bishop Frank White of Newcastle):

P.S. A thought just came to me on the spur(s) of the moment: Bishop-elect White likes to joke about football. Apparently “one of Frank’s greatest achievements in his whole ministry” was to have served as Archdeacon of Sunderland although he is a lifelong supporter of Newcastle. So wouldn’t it be fun if the next woman bishop announced were the Revd. Sheila Hart of Suffolk. Then there would be Lady Bishops White, Hart and Lane!

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13 Responses to “Mr and Mrs Bishop”

  1. Viola F. Hayhurst says:

    Protestant churches have historically allowed married couples to co- pastor, if one wishes to use this term and are continuing to do so. For all of its Catholic trappings, the Church of England is a Protestant breakaway from the Roman Catholic church. Need more be said ?

    • Rev22:17 says:

      Viola,

      You wrote: For all of its Catholic trappings, the Church of England is a Protestant breakaway from the Roman Catholic church. Need more be said ?

      Actually, the Catholic Church does NOT regard either the Church of England or any of the rest of the Anglican Communion as Protestant because the Anglican Schism actually was political whereas the reformation was theological. It’s very unfortunate that these bodies subsequently succumbed to some Protestant theological influences, especially surrounding the sacrament of Holy Orders, that introduced invalid rites of ordination and consequent loss of apostolic succession. But even in recent times, the Second Vatican Council drew a clear distinction between the Anglican Communion and Protestant denominations in the decree Unitatis redintegratio on ecumenism. Note the following (boldface added).

      13. We now turn our attention to the two chief types of division as they affect the seamless robe of Christ….

      Other divisions arose more than four centuries later in the West, stemming from the events which are usually referred to as “The Reformation.” As a result, many Communions, national or confessional, were separated from the Roman See. Among those in which Catholic traditions and institutions in part continue to exist, the Anglican Communion occupies a special place.

      Norm.

  2. Viola F. Hayhurst says:

    As you said “Among those in which Catholic traditions and institutions in part continue to exist, the Anglican Communion occupies a special place”. On a very fuzzy cusp, true and one so true of its historical and current nature but no Anglican/ Episcopal order is within the authority of the Latin Catholic Church, the True church and hence remains in “Schism”. And it is tipping its hat more and more toward its essential “protestant” nature. Hence women are fully qualified to become pastors within such schisms but what to me is so sad is that as a consequent of it, their communicants are not able to receive the fullness of the Host within their sacramental rituals but only its essence– however this is defined in its “fuzziness”. A lot of denial and urban mythology is ongoing in today ‘s Anglican / Episcopal body !

    • Rev22:17 says:

      Viola,

      You wrote: As you said “Among those in which Catholic traditions and institutions in part continue to exist, the Anglican Communion occupies a special place”. On a very fuzzy cusp, true and one so true of its historical and current nature but no Anglican/ Episcopal order is within the authority of the Latin Catholic Church, the True church and hence remains in “Schism”. And it is tipping its hat more and more toward its essential “protestant” nature. Hence women are fully qualified to become pastors within such schisms but what to me is so sad is that as a consequent of it, their communicants are not able to receive the fullness of the Host within their sacramental rituals but only its essence– however this is defined in its “fuzziness”. A lot of denial and urban mythology is ongoing in today ‘s Anglican / Episcopal body !

      To be clear, the lack of validity of Anglican orders was settled definitively by the apostolic constitution Apostolicae curae promulgated by Pope Leo XIII on 18 September 1896. This was several decades before any province of the Anglican Communion started ordaining women, so ordination of women clearly was was not a consideration therein.

      The more significant case with respect to ordination of women is that of the former Old Catholic Communion established among formerly Catholic dioceses that severed communion with the pope after the First Vatican Council under the Union of Utrecht and subsequently ordained the first bishops for the Polish National Catholic Church (PNCC) here in North America. The Old Catholic Communion is neither Protestant nor Anglican, and its apostolic succession remained undisputed until the European churches thereof decided to start ordaining women c. 2005. With that decision, the PNCC left the Union of Utrecht and subsequently formed the Union of Scranton with the Nordic Catholic Church, the first bishops of which were ordained by bishops of the PNCC. The Vatican certainly has taken a dim view of ordinations within the Union of Utrecht since the decision to ordain women, but I’m not aware of a definitive declaration in the matter. The orders of the clergy of the PNCC and the Nordic Catholic Church, however, are still indisputably valid.

      Norm.

      • Viola F. Hayhurst says:

        About the validity of Anglican orders ? The very best of Catholic theologians do not / have not/ will not/ never will buy into this argument. Hence “urban mythology” !

      • William Tighe says:

        I have been informed, on good authority, that Paul VI was willing, in the 1970s, to reconsider the matter of “Anglican Orders,” with particular regard to the participation of Union of Utrecht Old Catholic bishops in Anglican episcopal consecrations from 1932 onwards, but that the Vatican deferred, and finally abandoned, this project once WO began to spread throughout the Anglican Communion. Cardinal Kasper put the matter bluntly to the bishops of the Church of England in 2006 and in response Bishop Wright (then of Durham) and Bishop Stancliffe (then of Salisbury) – the one an evangelical, the other a liberal Anglo-Catholic – gave a polite rejection of his request that the CofE not proceed with the authorizing the ordination of woman bishops; and his reiteration of his statement at a very thinly address at the 2008 Lambeth Conference (at a “fringe meeting,” not a plenary session) was simply ignored in silence.

      • William Tighe says:

        “Hence ‘urban mythology’ !”

        Please elucidate your rather obscure two statements to this effect.

      • Rev22:17 says:

        Viola,

        You wrote: About the validity of Anglican orders ? The very best of Catholic theologians do not / have not/ will not/ never will buy into this argument.

        Except that, in Apostolicae curae, the pope did not promulgate an argument that is open to further debate. Rather, he promulgated a declaration that constitutes a definitive judgement of the magisterium. Here it is (boldface added).

        36. Wherefore, strictly adhering, in this matter, to the decrees of the pontiffs, our predecessors, and confirming them most fully, and, as it were, renewing them by our authority, of our own initiative and certain knowledge, we pronounce and declare that ordinations carried out according to the Anglican rite have been, and are, absolutely null and utterly void.

        There is no ambiguity whatsoever here.

        The definitive judgement of the magisterium in this regard is also manifest in the fact that former Anglican clergy received into the full communion of the Catholic Church must receive ordination from a Catholic bishop, in the standard (absolute) form, before they can exercise sacramental orders. By contrast, clergy received into the full communion of the Catholic Church from any church of the Orthodox Communion, from any of the ancient oriental churches, or from the churches of the Union of Scranton have valid orders and thus are NOT re-ordained. Rather, they are granted faculties for exercise of their orders immediately upon reception into full communion.

        Norm.

      • Rev22:17 says:

        Professor Tighe,

        You wrote: I have been informed, on good authority, that Paul VI was willing, in the 1970s, to reconsider the matter of “Anglican Orders,” with particular regard to the participation of Union of Utrecht Old Catholic bishops in Anglican episcopal consecrations from 1932 onwards, but that the Vatican deferred, and finally abandoned, this project once WO began to spread throughout the Anglican Communion.

        Yes, that’s true. It’s also significant that the defects that existed in the Edwardian ordinal have been corrected in the present Anglican rite of ordination. Nevertheless, the exclusive use of the Edwardian ordinal was used for over a century made it utterly impossible for a valid apostolic succession to have survived. Additionally, the ordination of women creates a clear defect of intent that invalidates present Anglican ordinations, and apparently also those of the Union of Utrecht.

        Norm.

  3. EPMS says:

    For those whose anti-modernist hackles are stirred, or who are getting some Schadenfreude jollies from this clip, remember that many Catholics experience similar emotions at the sight of Fr Francis X . Anglican with the missus and three kids. I recall a photo of a toddler fully prostrated beside his father, in similar posture at his ordination, which might have struck the traditional-minded in either of these ways.

    • Rev22:17 says:

      EPMS,

      You wrote: For those whose anti-modernist hackles are stirred, or who are getting some Schadenfreude jollies from this clip, remember that many Catholics experience similar emotions at the sight of Fr Francis X . Anglican with the missus and three kids. I recall a photo of a toddler fully prostrated beside his father, in similar posture at his ordination, which might have struck the traditional-minded in either of these ways.

      The ordination of married former Anglican and former Protestant clergy in the Catholic Church — which started back in the 1950’s, if not before, but certainly became much more prevalent in the 1980’s — seems not to have raised anywhere near the hackles that the Vatican expected. Many “cradle Catholics” were caught by surprise when they encountered married Catholic clergy for the first time, the typical response is one of gratitude for the access to the sacraments that the married clergy now provide.

      Norm.

  4. EPMS says:

    Well, polls show that about 60% of Catholics who attend mass at least once a week support the idea of married clergy—about the same percentage as those who support the idea of women’s ordination. So I was not referring to the “typical response”, but rather to that of the “traditional-minded”, as I said.

  5. Viola F. Hayhurst says:

    On “urban mythology”… the most dominant one is that the Anglican Church is “just as Catholic” as the Latin Church AND on receiving the Real Presence— sorry ! What a joy it was for me to finally attend a Anglican Use Latin Rite service in the Boston (USA) area and in the Host, to know without any doubt that I had the “Real Presence” and that all was in order and valid. An experience that I have never had in any Anglican- Catholic, Traditional Anglican Catholic or any other off set from the “True Catholic Church” !

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